I published a piece about the sources of woman on woman aggression in the workplace. Some of the comments the post about the piece received on LinkedIn surprised me because they used a number of techniques to distract from and discredit the content of the post because they disagreed with the photo used or the interpretation of the photo.
This fascinated me and got me thinking about the subtleties of woman of woman aggression that can progress into bullying and how these subtleties manifest in interactions between women. I’m releasing a piece on this shortly!
Now I don’t want to leave my men readers out and will say that this affects you too. Whether it’s women on your team, your employees, your employers - you can be caught in the crossfire or inadvertently stoking the fire of conflict as described here.
Even when statistics report up to 80% of bullying incidents in the workplace are woman on woman, I want to understand why some women (and men) deny that woman on woman aggression actually happens.
Here are my questions:
Why do some women (and men) deny the existence of bullying and aggression between women?
What’s are the beliefs and motives driving denial and attempts to shut down discussions about woman on woman bullying in the workplace?
I’m looking forward to seeing your perspectives and responses to these questions and more importantly, giving others the opportunity to see different perspectives about the causes of women on women bullying, a constellation of narcissistic behaviours, at work.
Thank you for reading, supporting, sharing, subscribing and commenting below,
"Please review rape cases and female jurists... Ive seen cases where they devalue the victim*** its horrible Since Im a kid Ive always had more male friends than female... if ur attractive n successful some women will always be envious and disparaging instead of supportive... Ive had endless encounters where women flirt with my partner or even eyeball him and ignore me. I go out of my way to only speak to the woman if its a couple - so she knows Im on her side... My mom got me thru it all... strong women support women***"
People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo. Quite the opposite, targets are the ones who are scrutinized, not the bullies.
The beliefs and motives I’m sure vary quite a bit but given my background growing up in a cluster b family system I would say it is all derived from cluster b family system dynamics. Addiction, codependency attachment and personality disorders, mood disorders, you name it. Cluster b families keep unimaginable secrets and if you are born into them, you are programmed out of the womb to pretend things are ok when they are not. Many cluster b families deny abuse because it allows them to continue abusing. People do what works.
This reminds me of the research around lateral violence and workplace incivility in nursing - which remains a profession dominated by women. The hazing, abuse and toxicity, especially towards young nurses, is alarming. (Medical training and practice have our own serious forms of abuse)
Sadly I must agree with you all. Bullying is a dangerous, invisible weapon of narcissistic women, specially in educational institutions.
It starts in elementary schools all the way to higher education. It seems as women got this nasty talent down packed. I’m a 65 year old professional, a clinician and an educator. And always been an advocate for women’s rights. Yet, Some of my most disheartening experiences I’ve had in my personal and professional life is from women. Women whom I hired, or those who were over me, or just lived next door.
I wish someday those female bullies would understand that world is always harder on women we need to give each other a break.
Apr 10, 2023·edited Apr 10, 2023Liked by Nathalie Martinek PhD
In the small sample of my experience, no group of people white ant women more than other women. This includes targeted slander, a campaign to undermine effectiveness and competency amongst other things.
The worst example, a team leader purposefully didn't identify nor train a woman on a specific program required to complete a task efficiently. This caused delays in the job completion that would eventually lead to performance management as the staff member had to complete the jobs without that tool. Ironically, that woman was in charge of performance management also.
It wasn't until other male staff looked into it, that they saw the obvious gap in training.
To this day, I have no idea what they hoped to achieve from this.
There is a misconception that bullying is gender based. Bullying can arise out of a genuine dislike for the other person can be perceived as behaviour based, Stress can also bring out the bully in some people. People can also believe that in certain positions they have to act a particular way because of what they have seen or how they have been trained even though they are not necessarily actually like that the word bullying is becoming
more noticeable today because of the uncertain times people are living in life Is coming on top of them. That’s not an excuse it something to look at then the other reasons that are displayed
I've worked for myself for over a decade but when I worked for other people, 9 times out of 10 I would rather report to a woman than to another man. If you're a reliable and competent worker, a female boss is more likely to notice and appreciate your efforts, whereas a male boss sees you as a threat and wants to squash you because he's afraid one day he'll end up reporting to you, or something.
Any time I've had this conversation with a woman friend or a client, they're usually surprised and say they'd rather work for a man than a woman, for exactly the same reasons + more overt bullying.
I suspect that the women who deny any form of toxic, abusive or manipulative behaviours ever occur between women either (a) hate men and want ways that men can be problematic to be the ONLY conversation allowed to happen, or (b) hate other women and likely are the perpetrators of the sort of abuses you're talking about. Possibly both A + B at the same time though.
Thanks Nathalie for your appreciated response. The issues surrounding bullying can be easily addressed and rectified.
Bullying can be perceived and arise through all sorts of situations. What is needed to reduce these incidences is pointing out that there are better ways to communicate. Having in place a specific HR policy that is stringently applied. Work shops with role play enactments. Then having regular reviews on how the whole process has panned out. With the right process in place behaviours and attitudes can change in a blink of an eye to generating a far more grown up friendly user environment.
From an anonymous reader
"Please review rape cases and female jurists... Ive seen cases where they devalue the victim*** its horrible Since Im a kid Ive always had more male friends than female... if ur attractive n successful some women will always be envious and disparaging instead of supportive... Ive had endless encounters where women flirt with my partner or even eyeball him and ignore me. I go out of my way to only speak to the woman if its a couple - so she knows Im on her side... My mom got me thru it all... strong women support women***"
People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo. Quite the opposite, targets are the ones who are scrutinized, not the bullies.
The beliefs and motives I’m sure vary quite a bit but given my background growing up in a cluster b family system I would say it is all derived from cluster b family system dynamics. Addiction, codependency attachment and personality disorders, mood disorders, you name it. Cluster b families keep unimaginable secrets and if you are born into them, you are programmed out of the womb to pretend things are ok when they are not. Many cluster b families deny abuse because it allows them to continue abusing. People do what works.
This reminds me of the research around lateral violence and workplace incivility in nursing - which remains a profession dominated by women. The hazing, abuse and toxicity, especially towards young nurses, is alarming. (Medical training and practice have our own serious forms of abuse)
Sadly I must agree with you all. Bullying is a dangerous, invisible weapon of narcissistic women, specially in educational institutions.
It starts in elementary schools all the way to higher education. It seems as women got this nasty talent down packed. I’m a 65 year old professional, a clinician and an educator. And always been an advocate for women’s rights. Yet, Some of my most disheartening experiences I’ve had in my personal and professional life is from women. Women whom I hired, or those who were over me, or just lived next door.
I wish someday those female bullies would understand that world is always harder on women we need to give each other a break.
In the small sample of my experience, no group of people white ant women more than other women. This includes targeted slander, a campaign to undermine effectiveness and competency amongst other things.
The worst example, a team leader purposefully didn't identify nor train a woman on a specific program required to complete a task efficiently. This caused delays in the job completion that would eventually lead to performance management as the staff member had to complete the jobs without that tool. Ironically, that woman was in charge of performance management also.
It wasn't until other male staff looked into it, that they saw the obvious gap in training.
To this day, I have no idea what they hoped to achieve from this.
There is a misconception that bullying is gender based. Bullying can arise out of a genuine dislike for the other person can be perceived as behaviour based, Stress can also bring out the bully in some people. People can also believe that in certain positions they have to act a particular way because of what they have seen or how they have been trained even though they are not necessarily actually like that the word bullying is becoming
more noticeable today because of the uncertain times people are living in life Is coming on top of them. That’s not an excuse it something to look at then the other reasons that are displayed
I've worked for myself for over a decade but when I worked for other people, 9 times out of 10 I would rather report to a woman than to another man. If you're a reliable and competent worker, a female boss is more likely to notice and appreciate your efforts, whereas a male boss sees you as a threat and wants to squash you because he's afraid one day he'll end up reporting to you, or something.
Any time I've had this conversation with a woman friend or a client, they're usually surprised and say they'd rather work for a man than a woman, for exactly the same reasons + more overt bullying.
I suspect that the women who deny any form of toxic, abusive or manipulative behaviours ever occur between women either (a) hate men and want ways that men can be problematic to be the ONLY conversation allowed to happen, or (b) hate other women and likely are the perpetrators of the sort of abuses you're talking about. Possibly both A + B at the same time though.
Thanks Nathalie for your appreciated response. The issues surrounding bullying can be easily addressed and rectified.
Bullying can be perceived and arise through all sorts of situations. What is needed to reduce these incidences is pointing out that there are better ways to communicate. Having in place a specific HR policy that is stringently applied. Work shops with role play enactments. Then having regular reviews on how the whole process has panned out. With the right process in place behaviours and attitudes can change in a blink of an eye to generating a far more grown up friendly user environment.
Frank